Email interview of Butch Turk by Bryan DiSalvatore, summer 2001.

(Soon afterwards 9/11 occurred and he never tried to sell the planned freelance article).

Thanks. Here is my first set of questions. Please be as “detailed” and story-telling as possible. Texture is as important as fact. Ramble if you wish.

Bryan DiSalvatore

1) I have a short article written by GEOFF MARIETTA AND JARED SPAULDING (journalism students), dated 10/5/98 telling of the first and subsequent paintings.

B: I was “John”, the source for that article. They did not get everything correct, so don’t use something from their article without checking it out with me.

Here are some questions:

a) What was inspiration for the name NSLF?

B: Back in the late 70′s and early 80′s some folks living on Pine Street downtown jokingly called themselves the Pine Street Liberation Front. Their main public act was to shoot fireworks at the Sheriff’s Department/jail at the top of the County Courthouse every 4th of July night. They quit when someone got caught. At the same time the Down Home Project (now Garden City Seeds and M.U.D.) had been started on Phillips St. and others in a broad circle of friends and activists had moved to Missoula’s Northside neighborhood. We would joke about seceding from Missoula and hanging a “Welcome to the Independent Northside” banner from the Orange St. underpass, and called ourselves the Northside Liberation Front (NSLF). We never had a meeting or manifesto and anyone that wanted to could and did call themselves NSLF. When we painted the sign it was only natural to sign it ‘NSLF’.

b) What was inspiration–in 1983–for the action? That is, the immediate inspiration–MX missiles?

B: Actually, I believe the idea of painting something on US West’s big, ugly, but enticingly blank, reflector preceded the decision of exactly what to paint. At the time we didn’t know who owned it (US West, City, County?) or what kind of signals it reflected. Several of us had been very involved in the peace/solidarity/anti-nuclear movement for years. While the MX was certainly a big issue at the time, I’d say the choice of a peace sign was an expression of our values rather than a comment on a particular issue.

c) It speaks of “John” (name changed) and 5 others–true?

B: Yes, four men and two women, five in their twenties and one 19 year old.

d) Can you expand on “color of sign” debate–according to the article the possibilities were red for radical; black for anarchy; and then the final, an “artistic” green.

B: Three of us were discussing the color and brainstorming possibilities–red for revolution and black for anarchy were two options suggested by the politicos, myself and a friend. My roommate, an excellent artist, pointed out the beauty of Waterworks Hill and opined that we couldn’t put something so garish up there. We immediately recognized that he was absolutely correct and settled on green. I don’t remember a “debate” once he spoke.

e) Do you remember the sort of paint? Where did it come from?–i.e. leftover in a garage, bought at store specially?

B: It was bought from a local store by two of the folks, a couple. I remember them talking about having some debate over the exact shade.

f) How did others feel about the one person who, according to the piece, “chickened out”? Do you remember his/her reasons?

B: No one chickened out. We were completely ignorant about how to use ropes properly. We could tie ourselves up safely, but not very comfortably or conveniently. So, our lightest member, one of the women, went over the top and did some of the painting, but then had to be lowered to the ground because she was in too much pain. This left me and another guy at the top. The four on the ground talked and felt that maybe we should quit and come back after learning how to tie ourselves–a very rational and not “chicken” opinion. However, the guy on top with me was willing to give it a try, I was willing to belay, and the others were willing to assist, so we managed to finish the job that night. I think the whole process took five or six hours. Later, we got much faster once we made sure to take real climbers along. I still remember waiting (not very long) for the sun to come up so we could see our work.

g) When did the group leave from town?

B: I don’t remember. 11 pm or midnight is a guess.

h) Do you remember the inspiration for “Nothing happens” and the question mark?

B: I was not in town when those appeared. I was living in the San Francisco Bay Area during the ‘fist-finger-smiley face -Nothing Happens?’ period of Waterworks Hill art history, May 1989–June 1992.

i) Any theories on the painters of the word “nigger”?

B: I’d bet it was kids wanting to shock, rather than true white supremacists. Hell, with the popularity of the rap culture, it wasn’t an uncommon word.

J) How long did “nigger” stay on the sign before repainting?

B: I’m not sure. I heard about it in January of 1995. Thanks to some crazy warm weather, we were able to paint it over in late February.

k) The writers estimate that “John” their source, estimates that over the years 60-75 different people worked at one time or another on various paintings of the sign? Does this seem true?

B: It’s my guess of a minimum based on the numbers I went with and the minimum needed to do it the times that I wasn’t there. Once, we must have had 15 there. I liked the idea of involving as many folks as possible so that large numbers had a stake in it.

Can you–as discretely but as specifically as possible–give synopses of some of these folks? Long-time locals? Some occupations? Age range? Motives? Public officials? The more details the better, all the while, of course, “masking” true identities as you see fit.

B: Original crew:
Woman – UM student, Central America solidarity activist
Man – artist, organic gardener
Woman – sustainable living activist
Man – tree planter
Me – student, peace activist
Man – peace activist, worked odd jobs

Since then the crews have included more teenagers, 50 year olds, a wide range of citizens, natives and decades-long residents, union organizers, a writer, a journalist, at least one former Missoula City Council member, Vo-Tech (now UM COT) students, community/peace/environmental activists, state workers, Rainbow Family folks, nurses, farmers, musicians, and more.

I guess I can only describe my motives: Of course I support peace for America and the world. Otherwise, I never would have been involved in the first place. We are among the most violent nations in history and our state is complicit in preparations for the nuclear immolation of millions of civilians. Someone needs to offer an alternative view. However, my motives expanded over the years. Once we’d opened Pandora’s Box the question was always what, not if, something would be up there. Sometimes it was esthetically deficient like the second peace sign–red, skinny, scraggly, and lopsided (I wasn’t involved). Other times it was offensive–the finger, “nigger”. I came to believe that if careful folks didn’t put up a well-painted peace sign, the alternative would usually be worse. Also, over the years I came to realize how important our larkish graffiti was to some people. You only have to look at last year’s debate to see that. I know of more than one valuable member of our community who came to Missoula or decided to return in part because of the peace sign. It appeared in art, on wedding invitations, on commercial products, and as a recognized landmark in conversations and the media. Finally, I believe in unauthorized, public art. Graffiti, if done well, can be an outlet for the voiceless or poor, as well as a political statement about the nature of private property. Why is it okay to deface our hillsides with a reflector, but not to deface the reflector? Why is it okay to drown Missoula in billboards, but not to advocate a point of view on an alley wall? Why is the battleship gray of city council member Curtis Horton and police chief Pete Lawrenson better than fat, curvy lettering? Why is it okay to have taxpayer-funded war recruitment adds on TV, but not a peace sign on the hill.

l) How much paint did you use?

B: Less than a quart each time.

Do you remember the thickness of the circle, say, or the peace symbol “arms?”

B: It varied. Perhaps you should check one of the remaining pieces, like the one at Rockin’ Rudy’s. I’m guessing three feet.

2) Could you, if you were there, give me details of the “evening” of deciding to paint the sign? Was it a bunch of folks drinking beer or toking? Was it a barbeque? Was it just a bunch of folks gathered for some other reason?

B: As far as the original idea, I remember it coming from a conversation between myself and one other guy, but I can’t remember the exact discussion or place as well as I can the subsequent “color” conversation that included my roommate. We talked about it and planned it for at least a couple of weeks, including drawing a to-scale schematic. We went the first convenient night after we’d bought the paint.

3) Was the NSLF in existence before the painting–Created during the hike? After? Was the name a goof?

B: Yes. No. No. Sort of (see above).

4) After a February 1991 US West whitewashing of the sign, in April it was painted over? Can you elaborate on this incident?

B: I was out of town, although I’m not surprised that US West painted it over while the U.S. was butchering Iraqis. They’d done it several times over the years.

5) Do you remember, or remember hearing about, a swastika being painted on the sign?

B: I think there was a small one that we covered over when we covered up the word “nigger”. I don’t remember a big one.

6) How do you feel about the sign’s demise? Also–what about the argument of esthetics and “open space”? Is this a valid issue–or is it hypocrisy, that is, the M and the L remain….

B: Hey, it had a good run–18 years. All my works, political and otherwise, should be so enduring. Having it taken down bothered me less than many folks. I’d originally wanted to decorate what I considered to be an abomination to a beautiful hill, so I can’t fully mourn the return of the natural view. I noticed that the removal had begun as I was driving out of town to go to a demonstration at the Nevada Nuclear Weapons Test Site (yes, we haven’t closed it yet). Ironic, huh? It was a bit sad, but not overly much. More depressing is the thought that it came down due to its content rather than to unclutter the hill. The M and the L are insults to the dignity of Jumbo and Sentinel, yet they’re shamelessly “improved” in broad daylight.

B: Anecdotes:

One time in the mid eighties, US West painted over the sign. We waited until late October to restore it, figuring it might get too cold for them to paint it over, thus ensuring that it remained through the winter. We got half of it done and then got slammed with a sleet storm and had to retreat off the hill. It never got warm enough to paint again, so Missoula was stuck with the left half of a peace sign until we finished the job in March.

In 1988 someone painted over what they could reach of the top and bottom of the sign. Because I’d just been up the hill, I knew exactly what night they’d done it on. Within two or three nights, three of us went up to fix the damage. I’d guess that the anti-peace sign artists were annoyed at how briefly their effort lasted.

In 1995 a mutual friend introduced me to a woman who had noticed the “nigger” and wanted to do something about it. We organized an expedition and took care of it. She and I have been lovers (more off than on) for the six years since.

The first mention of the peace sign in the Missoulian was an August 1983 letter to the editor written by a pair of Florida (how perfect is that?) tourists who criticized it while promoting Reagan’s Strategic Defense Initiative (Star Wars).

I’ve heard that it represents the Satanic, upside down, broken cross.

The Greatful Dead played at the Aber Day Kegger sometime before I moved to Missoula in 1975. I’ve heard and believe that Jerry Garcia got beaned with a plastic pitcher during the show. I’ve also heard and don’t believe that he said they wouldn’t return to Missoula until “there is peace on the mountain”. Missoula lore has it that that is why we painted the sign. Sometime along the way vandalism became myth.

Some people will swear that the peace sign had been up there since the Vietnam War.

At one point during the 1980s US West constructed a 6-foot chain link fence around the peace sign and hung ‘No Trespassing’ signs on the fence. You have to admire the optimism of the corporate honcho who imagines that a 6-foot fence will deter folks that have been scaling a 35-foot structure.